Sonic Forces

@8000 Saiyans Well, it's not the first time a Sonic character has kicked someone. Remember when Shadow kicked Silver in the head on 06?

@SolVA TBH I loved her as Amy in Boom (I honestly even prefer her to Lisa Ortiz) but she definitely sounds off here. The same can also be said for Rouge as well so maybe it’s the bad material and direction.

@Soul-dragon I never ever watched Sonic Boom so I can't comment on that, though I've saw some clips. I just get why they went with a completely different voice that doesn't sound at all 'Amy Rose'.
I'd agree with Rouge, as much as I love Karen's Rouge voice, it was off here.

@SolVA *don't get

@xXLikeABossXx Give up on all modern Sonic games.

@Marusero Incorporate the classic gameplay into 3D.

@8000 Saiyans To be honest, I think that the 'Adventure' duology of games tried to do that with Sonic, Tails (specifically in 'SA1'), and Knuckles, though they could try incorporating of elements in the classic games into 3D.

Also, I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but I wish for the characters' modern designs to be kept. Minor nitpick, I know, but still.

@Marusero It doesn't offend me in the slightest.

@Marusero An adventureware style game that only has Sonic/Shadow style gameplay. No mechs, no fly formation, no fishing, no emerald hunting, no chao, no guns. Just 30 levels of the good stuff.

Maybe it could be about Sonic and Shadow working together in a good-cop bad-cop kind of way, where they both get 15 levels each. It can be called Sonic & Shadow, and they both have slight differences in mechanics (Sonic has bounce attack for higher spots, Shadow has chaos control for gaps).

@Marusero The boost games can be good, but what I love about the Adventure and Classic games is that I always feel like I'm in control of Sonic.

When I'm not pressing the boost button, Sonic feels kind of stiff to me.

@Digifan I haven’t heard the French dub yet, just the other languages.

@Marusero

http://www.thatsfake.com/breakingnews365-net-prank-news-site/

@NCZ Oh, I actually didn't know about that, Mr. Admin.

@AMT Agreed. Expect mostly everyone sounded that way (with the expection of Pollock, Smith, Willingham and Thornton (as Orbot not Shadow)). It's a shame since every VA in the cast is so talented but in the end the bad script and bad voice direction had to cloud that over.

@AMT Blame it on bad direction.

@8000 Saiyans Stinks really. Jack Fletcher's a great director but even I'll admit he wasn't exactly at his best here.

@Soul-dragon That's a misleading term to be honest, it's divisive, but not bad.

I swear to god that these generalizations about the game to Sonic Team is irritating to the core.

@Luigikun Maybe you shouldn't let the opinions of random strangers on the Internet bother you.

@Nightmare Crusher I'm trying, but how you can if all you can read is nothing more but putrid, broken record of generalizations of all Sonic games made by Sega are all "bad" even though that's not true and that apparently Sonic Team will not get a good direction for their mascot...

You get what I'm saying? Because I don't want to see the future of Sonic dominated by a vocal minority.

@Luigikun I've barely paid any attention to this and I saw plenty of buzz on Youtube and stuff. I don't know how that is now that the game's out, but that was literally yesterday. I think the problem is you not being able to accept contrary opinions so they stick out in your mind.

@Nightmare Crusher It's not that I don't accept them, it's just that they don't always reflect what the games is or what the franchise needs.

@Luigikun That's your opinion. Other people aren't going to agree. You insisting they are factually wrong and letting it bother you means you don't accept them.

@Nightmare Crusher @Luigikun Agreed. I'm not trying to pick a fight and I'm not saying anything offensive. If another person's opinion is to much for you to handle then maybe you shouldn't be on the internet.

@Luigikun

Who is "generalizing"?

Speaking for myself I was cautiously optimistic when the game was announced last year. The problem was as more information started coming out I started picking up more and more red flags. Now that the game is out and I'm reading impressions, pretty much all of them touch specifically on the red flags I picked up and say that they are legitimate flaws they had with the game.

The problem lies in the fact that Sonic Team have been making 3D Sonic games for almost 20 years. 20 freakin' years! There are adults today who weren't born when Sonic Adventure came out. Compared to most other game franchises, Sonic has been fortunate.

Other game series have died for far less. Bubsy had only three games and one downright bad one was enough to sink him. Crash and Spyro lasted 6-7 years without their original developers before getting put on ice. The fact that Sonic 06 is widely considered one of the worst video games ever released and yet STILL didn't stop the series from going is actually extremely unusual in the gaming world. I think in retrospect, it's specifically because Sonic was such a beloved character that people just couldn't process that Sega would allow a game of that caliber.

People have given Sonic Team chance after chance with the 3D Sonic games. Adventure 1 may be rough around the edges, but it was very well-liked at the time and considered a great first step toward taking Sonic into 3D, many people excited for what could come next. While Adventure 2 split people via some of the changes they made (e.g. scrapping Adventure Fields, putting Tails in a mech, making the non-Speed characters mandatory), it was nonetheless equally beloved.

Then came Heroes where rather than refining the Adventure formula further, Sonic Team decided to toss everything out the window. This is the pattern that has plagued them ever since. Whenever Sonic Team finds something that works, they immediately decide to throw it all away and reinvent the wheel. This has been a bad strategy in the long run because all it does is fracture the fanbase.

Nintendo have managed to keep Mario stable for two reasons. 1) They allow their developers to take the time they need to get it right. Across 21 years, there have been only 6 3D Mario games on home consoles. While there are subtle differences, at the core they nonetheless follow the same basic structure. In the equivalent length of time, Sonic Team have developed 9 mainline 3D Sonic games and 3 console spinoffs. That's *twice* as many as Mario had in the same amount of time. And each of them has been an almost totally different experience from a fundamental perspective.

The streak from Unleashed/Colours/Generations is the only time they had three games in a row that simply refined a formula. And even after that we got Lost World that did something completely different. Forces may be the UCG formula again, but then throwing Avatars into the mix is another strange upset that no one was especially asking for. Even Classic Sonic seems almost redundant with both Avatars and Mania existing.

No one is generalizing. The problem is Sonic Team have released 3D Sonic after 3D Sonic after 3D Sonic and their track record has been among the most polarizing of any developer on any series. There is no consistency when it comes to quality or the type of experience we can get from 3D Sonic. This isn't a "generalization". When it gets to the point that the developers' heart doesn't seem to be into it and they don't have a single, clear vision of what the series can be, that's when you're going to hit a breaking point.

I have loved Sonic as long as I have loved video games. I want the series to do better, to be better, because it deserves to. There's no reason why this game couldn't be the same bang-out-of-the-park in the same stratosphere as Super Mario Odyssey. The fact that the series is in its current state honestly kills me. If you went back in time 10, no, even 5 or 6 years ago and told me I'd not feel great about the Sonic game released in 2017, I would have laughed. But the big elephant in the room, at the end of the day, is that Sonic Team and Sega have brought a lot of the problems with the series upon themselves. This was their last real hail mary that could turn things around. At this point, it really would be for the best if 3D Sonic either takes a break or they get some newer, more passionate blood involved.

@NCZ Did...did you just write an entire essay on why we've all given up on 3D Sonic games at this point (don't worry I'm not judging since I'm hardly better myself since I'm writing an eighteen page biography on Miyamoto's life and the history of Mario for a school project). But yeah it would definitley be a good idea for Sega to take a break from 3D Sonic games or maybe get some new blood to make the games feel a little bit less empty because it has been 20 years. They need to learn to put some passion into their games, because if they don't Sonic will only exist as a comparison to show how good Mario games are.

@Soul-dragon

Lol it ended up being longer than I thought. But it took me only a few minutes really. Once I get going it just keeps flowing. I remember in middle school I did a presentation on Transformers but I forgot my script at home so I just improv'd it and I was able to pretty much recite it all from my brain.

@Soul-dragon I have every right to complain and say what I feel when it come to certain reviewers and whether they say about the franchise has any valuable objectivity.

@Luigikun From what I have seen in most of your replies is that you really don't like other people's opinions on the game at all. You keep trying to discredit them or tell them that they're wrong. If you like the game, that's fine, but don't go around telling people that their opinion doesn't matter. That's not a good thing to do.

@Shaun Ince But if other people try to use their opinion to make the uninitiated make Sonic Forces look like one of the worst games ever made when it shouldn't be? It would be just preferable if they would just said that's what they just feel, not that assuming that "nobody is surprised for another disappointing Sonic game" because if it is, then there wouldn't be any positive review coming out.

If I were to truly respect people's opinion, is that at least they should be specific about what they feel about the game instead of speaking out their voices like it applies to all fans when that's not even the case if others like it.

I 'm not trying to tell them that their opinions don't matter, it's just that how they say it it's very damaging in the perception of others, like the article itself which ironically doesn't believe that anyone likes the game and tries to say that no one is surprised that it's not good, which is of course false if you put the other reviews in mind.

In short: I can accept people's opinions, but if they try to discredit or alter the general perception of the game by making titles like that, then it's truly bothersome for others and it takes the objectivity of other views out of the window.

@Luigikun Discussing what's wrong with the game & what they have experienced is not generalizing. Also they are being specific about what they don't like about the game. Heck NCZ made a essay explaining why 3D Sonic games are in a bad place right now.

I think you might need to take another look at these comments & really ask yourself whether they're generalizing or not. I don't think they are.

@Shaun Ince I was referring to the Dorkly article, not the people here.

@Luigikun It's a clickbait article, dude. A little sensationalism is par for the course. Even then, it's not like they pulled some screed out of nowhere. All it did was cobble together some reactions from across the Internet.

I'd like to draw your attention to point 12 of that article.
"There are many fans who love the game just fine, and resent the early pile-on against it (like this exact post, to be fair)"

They're fairly aware of what the article is and they're coming in with a specific bias. Funnily enough, that description perfectly applies to you.

"If I were to truly respect people's opinion, is that at least they should be specific about what they feel about the game instead of speaking out their voices like it applies to all fans when that's not even the case if others like it."

That describes what you've been doing! The most substantial rebuttal you've offered to this article is basically, "No it's not." Just let it go. This is embarrassing.

@Nightmare Crusher My deepest apologies...it's just that I don't want to see a vocal minority dominate the future decisions of Sega...I want to see Sonic progress, not go backwards forever in a stage they already been through like what Sonic Mania shows.

@NCZ - Going back to Adventure 2's changes real quick, technically the notion of "making non-speed characters mandatory" was also present in Adventure 1 as well. If you wanted to unlock the final story, you HAD to play all six campaigns. Including Amy and Big...

@Jessica Marra Well, it looks normal to me and the others, so are the rest.

Nonetheless, you should still give Sonic Team a chance instead of trying to ditch them.

@Luigikun

Yo, dude. The game is out. Professional reviewers and journalists as well as many regular players have it. All of the cutscenes, stages, etc. are also online for people to judge for themselves. Is that enough of a chance before you can arbitrate whose opinions are worthy?

@NCZ ..............Yes.

@Luigikun

Then let others have their opinions, discuss them civilly and explain why you disagree instead of attempting to discredit what they're saying.

@NCZ Thanks for the stickup, NCZ. I appreciate it.

Long story short, I'm not saying the game is godawful. It's NOWHERE near as bad as Sonic 06 and Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric... it's just... mediocre at best.

@Jessica Marra Yeah this game is half decent at least. It's a shame really. I had such high hopes. Heres to hoping that future Sonic games follow in the footsteps of Sonic Mania instead of treating itself like it's as dark as Berserk.

@Jessica Marra

Hey, not a problem.

And yeah, that's basically how it all seems like it's shaking down to me. I don't know if I ever will play it myself but I think that's the big issue here. 06 and Boom were just total developmental trainwrecks. This game purely on a technical level is at least competent, but what's there creatively is just dry.

I kinda felt that about Lost World too. Not a bad game, but the problem there was it actually starts off pretty well but then about halfway through it loses a lot of steam. This game just makes me feel how the second half of Lost World made me feel.

@Soul-dragon Uhm, looking at the story, it's not that grimdark as Berserk, it treats itself like a Sonic story from the Adventure years to some extent.

That's a problem I have with some reviews, they just exaggerate the claims of things like controllers or handling of the plot, they make it look like they're the worst things that are handled when it's nothing like that bad at all.

@Luigikun Yes but it acts like it's all important and serious and has zero laughs. The mood of the game as a whole as rather dark and this can be proven by the dark backgrounds, serious music as well as the dialog and it's villain being overly edgy and overpowered. Bottom line, I want Sega to stop treating Sonic like it's as serious as Steins; Gates or Berserk because it's not. It's main character is a huge blue hedgehog with big shoes and super speed. That being said the franchise is better off being self aware as well as purposely corny and goofy.

@Soul-dragon Forgive me for replying on a comment that is seven months old (I believe?), but I think it'd be best if the series had a tone that has the right balance of being not too serious/dark nor too comedic/light-hearted (for example, think of Unleashed and the Storybook duology). Despite me disagreeing on the series being purposely corny and goofy, I still respect your opinion; it's as important as everyone else's.

@8000 Saiyans Yeah. It's truly a shame how this turned out. I mean the base for the plot sounded ok but the way they executed it and wrote their characters is awful. For example, Knuckles. He's supposed to be a complete and utter idiot, yet here they write him as an Alec Bladwin type military general. It didn't work and it took the fun out of the character whose suppose to be the comic relief. As for O'Brein's infinite...well let me just say I'd trade it for him reprising Inigo in a heartbeat.

@Soul-dragon - You do know Knuckles wasn't always the idiot Boom popularized him as, right? In fact most long time fans actually hate that they made Knuckles an idiot.

He's suppose to be a stoic, level headed, and passionate character who tends to let his anger get the better of him. The closest thing he had to idiocy was the fact that he was gullible. But that's largely because he lived alone on Angel Island for all his life, so he didn't know who was trustworthy or not.

It wasn't until Sonic Boom where he became labeled as an idiot. And even then, it was ONLY in Boom.

@Soul-dragon

Knuckles isn't supposed to be an idiot. He was supposed to be Sonic's rival with a slight gullible streak. Problem was after they introduced Shadow, he basically took Knuckles' old role and Knuckles wound up getting sidelined into the dumb tough guy role.

Knuckles was always kind of an idiot. He got tricked by Eggman two times. By the second time, he should have already known that Eggman isn't to be trusted. And besides, I don't see why people think Knuckles is so intelligent, when he was never that smart in the first place.

@HyperVoiceActing Really? Wow I never realized that.

@Soul-dragon Yeah, Knuckles's serious and stoic personality in the Adventure era originally made him the Blue Oni to the fun and outgoing Sonic's Red Oni (this would count as an inversion of the "Red Oni, Blue Oni" trope, just like with Sonic as the Red to Shadow's Blue). However, as NCZ said, after Shadow's introduction, Knuckles became somewhat more hot-blooded and is now the Red to Sonic's Blue (meaning that the same trope I mentioned earlier is played straight this time). The writers possibly did this to differentiate Knux from Shadow and to avoid redundancy, as both characters act as rivals and foils to Sonic.

If you'd like to know more about the "Red Oni, Blue Oni" trope: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RedOniBlueOni

@8000 Saiyans

I mean. There is a big difference between being gullible and an idiot. Knuckles was extremely competent in the games up until Heroes or so. After Sonic X and some of the spinoffs like Riders they started playing him up as the comic relief. The problem was I think in addition to Shadow they also had trouble figuring out what the justification for Knuckles being in the story was. Adventure 1 was admittedly where the whole gullibility angle was a bit thinner than it was first time around, and then you kinda notice that they pretty much drop the Master Emerald from the plotline after Adventure 2 so the result is he's just chilling with Sonic all the time and leaving it unattended.

There were times that Knuckles was used for comedic relief but it was never really about him being dumb and more he was just this cocky, sheltered guy who was easily taken advantage of. Over time though it pretty much started overtaking his actual role and personality in the storyline and then Boom ran with it as far as they could.

@NCZ Yeah, he was competent but that doesn't mean he was on the same level of intelligence as Tails.

@8000 Saiyans

I mean for sure, but Tails' shtick is being the kid genius. If we were all compared on our intelligence relative to Albert Einstein then we'd all be cockroaches.

@8000 Saiyans After watching the cuscenes I couldn't agree more, at first I thought the cutscene animations were bad, but almost everyone's lines are not fitting any situation in any cutscene.

@MasterBlaster Agreed. It's definitely a treat to hear them in expanded roles. In the end, though, it was a bit of a missed opportunity. I personally don't have a problem with more serious sonic stories (though I definitely understand others' gripes with them), but having watched the cutscenes and a good chunk of gameplay, I've noticed the dialogue feels incredibly stale. I understand it's a dramatic situation, but I feel like considering how cartoony some of the Sonic characters' personalities are, they have injected more personality into the lines. When characters are radioing in information, for instance, it feels like Knuckles could say Vector or Silver's lines, and it wouldn't sound out of character to me if they switched them. Unsurprisingly, I suppose, the only character who gets a decent amount of flavor is Sonic, whose dialogue is peppered with the Saturday-morning cheese punchlines seen in Sonic games since Colors. He delivers those just as well as he has before. But the rest of the "Sonic Team" sound like they're delivering their lines just well enough to sound professional but not really doing anything to sound very memorable. And I don't really blame them or the director. The script, for the most part, is incredibly bland. Mike Pollock (whose voice If feel is a little scratchier and less rich and deep than I'd like here) is one of the better performances, but even he doesn't get a lot of fun things to say. The scripting is just so bland, I feel it limits director and actor alike. I think the performance I'm fond of the most is Liam O'Brien, who feels right at home portraying an uber-powerful, doomsday edge lord whose scripting is just hammy enough that he's able to make it sound pretty good. I can tell he's having fun, at the very least. I can't confidently say the same for the rest of the cast.

@MasterBlaster I just want Cream back in a game again. She's one of my favourite Michelle Ruff characters.

@Marusero Yeah it's not as bad as Sonic 06 that's for certain. But it's still not good either.

@Soul-dragon - Not overall, but there are a few scenes I'd argue at least rivals 06's story

@HyperVoiceActing Can you give me a list?

@Soul-dragon - The ending I'd especially cite as being cringeworthy. Cliche line after cliche line with the characters being all "Dude you're totally amazing" to the Avatar character.

@HyperVoiceActing ...I just watched the whole thing. Yeah it's definitely bad. It honestly feels like a bad Sonic fanfiction that was written in a day.

On the bright side, though, we'll possibly know more about Infinite once Episode Shadow is released.

@Marusero Do I even want to know what Episode Shadow is? (the answer is yes BTW.)

@Soul-dragon It's cool, comrade. Episode Shadow, IIRC, will be a prequel to this game's story, so it could explain how those duplicates of Shadow, Zavok, Metal Sonic, and Chaos came to be. Plus, as I mentioned before, Shadow's DLC could also explain how Infinite became evil (according to a Famitsu article, Infinite was originally a regular anthropomorphic animal, just like Sonic and company). And who knows? It might even change your mind on the plot (if it's well executed, that is).

@HyperVoiceActing Perhaps having the same writer as Sonic 06 was a bad idea.

@Nightmare Crusher - No, it's Graff and Pontac. The guys who wrote Colors and Lost World

@Nightmare Crusher

It's even weirder than that. The writer (Eitaro Toyoda)'s previous main credits for the series were as a... Boss, Level, and Game Designer.

http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,52503/

@HyperVoiceActing @NCZ I could have sworn Shun Nakamura was the primary writer. I think Graff (and only him) just worked on cleaning up the localization. Not sure abput Eitaro Toyoda.

@Nightmare Crusher

I can try looking into it further but Nakamura is indeed credited as the producer, and yeah, he directed 06 previously and that was the last Sonic game he was seriously involved in. Apparently though, for what it's worth, the original story is written in Japanese, then Graff/Pontac rewrite/clean up stuff for the localization, and then that's worked back into the Japanese version. As producer though I figure he probably would have a hand in that of some sort.

@HyperVoiceActing Yeah it's bad alright. But hey at least a bad plot can be saved by addictive and fun gameplay, because besides the OC creator the gameplay is what's going to draw people to the game.

@HyperVoiceActing If there's one thing "Sonic Zombie Forces" got down pat, it's the part where they have to pretend the writers can write drama. There's just...nothing there.

@Soul-dragon - Really? From what I've seen the gameplay seems pretty uninspired and boring. And as stated before, Classic Sonic really felt slapped on

@immblueversion - I haven't seen that one (I personally consider a lot of balenaproductions' videos hit or miss) but I can attest that the game's attempt and drama and darkness is abysmal. Lost World, for all it's problems, had a story that felt more like a Sonic game than Forces

@HyperVoiceActing Really? Sigh. Guess this game is going to suck after all. But then again this is Sega. I don't know what I expected really. And yeah, Classic Sonic was pretty forced in. He's only really there to please fans and the reason he's in the game is just plain stupid.

@Ghosty404 I don't know, but I think the better question is, is it really necessary to ensure the future solely on a clinging past? No offense, I understand your concerns, but don't you think you should be at least more fair if you play the game itself?

@Luigikun "is it really necessary to ensure the future solely on a clinging past?"

Again, a director with a clear vision of what Sonic should be, regardless if it is reminiscent of Genesis, Dreamcast, or whatever system games, is beneficial. Someone could attempt to copy Sonic 1 and completely miss what made the game good. (looks at Sonic 4)

@Ghosty404 I can't tell either honestly. It's like the franchise keeps on going on one of those teenage phases were it keeps on changing to try and appeal to people as well as discover what it is. Now I usually wouldn't mind this...but the franchise has been around for quite some time now. Newer franchises like Xenoblade and Overwatch have already decided what group they want to appeal to so what's taking Sega so long to learn what they think the games are?

@Soul-dragon Sonic's identity is tied to the idea of being the hip, "mature" alternative video game mascot. In a world where video games aimed at teenagers and adults are far more prevalent his identity is lost. Any attempt to recapture that today becomes cringeworthy, especially now that games demand far higher production value with writing, voice acting and detailed stories there are more ways than ever to blow it.

Sonic has it really bad since fast gameplay requires big levels to contain it and that gets pretty expensive. It's probably why even the best of his most recent games use slower 2D platform sections as a crutch.

As Ghosty says, Sonic needs a clear direction instead of fumbling around trying to be what it can't. The series also has a massive problem with throwing the baby out with the bathwater. They keep trying to reinvent the wheel instead of polishing what they've got. Although apparently this game suffers from the opposite problem of being too derivative so I just don't know what they're supposed to do.

@Luigikun Also, that is some weird logic.

“Hmm, this game isn’t looking good. Maybe I should fork over 40-60 dollars to make sure.”

@Ghosty404

It's a real shame. Sonic Team hasn't really been the same for a while.

I always get the vibe so much of Sonic Team wants to work on other things and stretch their legs a bit. I remember for years Iizuka and maybe Naka and some other people fought to make NiGHTs 2. The downer was when it finally did come out I don't think it did very well, so Iizuka's been stuck on Sonic ever since. And then when Sonic Team do get to work on non-Sonic things they rarely get to catch a break either. On top of most of their 3D Sonic experiments not really paying off as well as they could, Sega in general being so much more risk-averse ever since they left third-party (Saturn and Dreamcast era Sonic Team was absolutely unstoppable when it came to creativity and new IP creation), and key people like Oshima, Naka, and Yasuhara having been gone for years it has to be so demoralizing sometimes.

Some fresh blood really is needed. Except for Generations the same guy has been directing their 3D Sonic games since Black Knight. Christian Whitehead getting handed the 2D keys got us one of the best Sonic games in years. I'm not strictly saying he should be the one to take up the 3D series, but since it worked so well I would love to see him, Stealth, and their team get another chance at the series and get to make more original stages and such.

@Ghosty404 I don't think they know what they want Sonic to be.

@Soul-dragon

I recently played that demo on both PS4 and Switch (the former of which also has English text and voices) and yeah...that one minute time limit is ridiculous and brutal. Still, I'll give credit where credit is due--at least Sega gave us a taste of what to expect and...yeah, while I do like the sense of speed you have, especially in the Avatar's stage, it's kinda underwhelming and linear as all get-out.

I'll hold final judgement until the final game comes out and I have MUCH more time to play and gather my thoughts, though.

Also, not to be pedantic, Soul-dragon, but does the English version count as a dub when the audio is lip-synced to that version (as it has been since Sonic Heroes)?

@HyperVoiceActing I agree with you on this, although we're gonna have to find out why he's in the plot when the game comes out.

@HyperVoiceActing Because Sonic Generations was popular and Sega likes money.

@MasterBlaster I agree with you, comrade.

@MasterBlaster

I don't think it's right to say "people should stop being pessimistic". Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. You're not obligated to be interested in every game that comes out. A lot of it is also coming from fans who would love to have a better game. Also, I think there are valid reasons why a lot of people aren't really feeling the game.

For me:

1 - Storyline being "serious" isn't the problem. Problem is bringing back such a hodgepodge of villains who don't all share the same origin, plus throwing in Infinite and create-a-character who are lackluster designs/cliched concepts that reflect what have usually been among the biggest laughingstocks of the Sonic series. A bit of fanservice is fine in small doses but here it feels like they're relying on what they think fans want to prop the game up instead of developing their own vision that they personally feel strong about.

2 - A lot of the stage design we've seen so far is not that great. Heavy reliance on linear and scripted sequences, classic sonic and avatars both being 2d seems redundant.

3 - Art direction is lackluster. The colours are very flat and a lot of the stages are drab-looking

4 - Large amount of content is recycled from Generations (stages, bosses, stage assets)

5 - Even the soundtrack which is usually a reliable aspect of sonic games feels phoned in.

Forces problem in general is it's indulging too much in the flaws that have hounded the 3d games forever and not doing much to address them. It essentially throws everything at the wall and no one is really sure what one vibe to take away from it. Some fresh blood went wonders for the 2D series and I think that's what's needed here since the same sort of passion/creativity that drove Unleashed/Colours/Generations just isn't here.

@NCZ

Yeah...maybe I was just letting the constant pessimism of the fanbase get the better of me. I guess I just want people to give the game a shot and save complaints until after the game is released, you know?

You do make some valid points, though, especially with the recycled content and saying that Sonic Team is throwing everything to the wall and trying to see what sticks. It's also quite telling that the game is being released for $40 that just feels like this was made on something of a budget.

That being said, I would like to see the Mania team try their hand at an official 3D game, if they were ever given the chance to do so.

Anywho, regardless of the fact, I apologize for my frustrated outburst.

@NCZ While you may have some valid points, the problem with it it's just it been repeated over and over again from various parts to the point that it just sounds like a deliberate mantra of wanting the game to be worse than Sonic 06 by the more extremist parts of the fandom, hence why I believe that people should just give the game a rest and see for themselves if what they feared was even that important.

@MasterBlaster Same thoughts here man!

@Luigikun

Are you nuts?

@NCZ At least that's what I feel from some comments I've seen that are not here. Nothing against you man.

@MasterBlaster

Ahh, it's fine. No need to pologize.

I get where you're coming from that it's impossible to really know anything for sure until it's in our hands. At the same time though, I do think that at the end of the day pre-release material exists to give us an idea about something, so I think it's fair to use that to judge how you're feeling about that. I guess I'm speaking for myself here but I tend to have a pretty good feeling of where I'll be about a game before it's out. I dunno. I mean, at the end of the day I still like Sonic (obviously the past few years have been hard to like it as much as I used to), I've been following the series practically forever, so I think at this point with this series especially I feel like I can trust my own intuition so if I'm not too crazy for what I'm seeing then I guess I just feel pretty good in saying it's not for me. Hopefully I'm excited to see what Christian Whitehead and his team have in store next, because I have total faith in them. And it'd be nice if Sonic Team could get projects they feel more strongly about too since Rhythm Thief and Puyo Puyo Tetris are two of their best games in years.

@NCZ

Thanks. Still, didn't mean to get such a hot head.

Yeah. that does make sense. Pre-release trailers and gameplay footage can be both a boon and a blemish in regards to generating hype and getting a general idea on how a game is.

Same here on Whitehead and his team. I haven't beaten Mania on either of the consoles I own it on, but I'd be lying if I said that I wasn't enjoying myself with it. I'm definitively looking forward to what they have planned in store for the future...maybe a game with all-original zones? XD

So true--I've been playing the Puyo Puyo series since 2009 (Through Fever, Fever 2, 15th Anniversary, 7, and 20th) and prior to Sega giving Tetris a chance with localization, I've always wondered "Why haven't they localized this series yet? It's so fun!" ...And it's also proof that Sonic Team CAN make great, fun games when they're out of their comfort zone.

@Soul-dragon To be fair, a Mario game can be nothing but Mario eating beans and farting, and it would still sell at least 750,000 copies.

Or maybe I'm being too pessimistic and this game will probably be good.

@8000 Saiyans

No matter what happens, at least we'll have Mania.

@Shaun Ince Same. I'm hoping this game becomes sort of a comeback for Sega. They made some really smart moves with it (including the OC generator.) and the voice acting looks pleasant enough.

@Shaun Ince - All one of them (not counting the Boom stuff anyway)

@Soul-dragon The overly dramatic tone of certain Sonic games, especially 2006 and Black Knight was always off putting IMO. You get stuff like an exestential crisis of BK's villain accompanied by Sonic's really bizarre design* and cheesy voice acting. (Never gonna be a fan of Jason Griffith's Sonic, sorry.) It's surreal and really doesn't work. The self aware humor of Colors and Generations fits the series much better.

*Just as an aside, Sonic is really freaky looking design wise. He's got a massive bobble head, gangly limbs and that fused eye thing. He's surprisingly weird looking for an iconic game mascot.

@Soul-dragon I see where you're coming from, even though I kind of disagree. IMO, Sega's trying to go back to what made the 3D Sonic games engaging (aside from core gameplay, of course): story and presentation. Even if you don't agree with me, I hope you can at least understand.

@Nightmare Crusher If you prefer the more light-hearted tone of the series, then you're totally allowed to (same thing goes for you not liking Griffith's Sonic as much as others, such as myself, do). You know, maybe for the next 3D games (after Forces), how about they try to tone down the seriousness a little bit and add in a few light-hearted moments (kind of like Unleashed)? I think that would work. As for Sonic's current design, I'm personally completely fine with the way it is (although I won't deny that people are making stupid memes about it).

@Marusero

I'm fine with more games like Mania being made. I'm excited as hell for it, and you can tell the developers have a real passion for what they're making and a great understanding of what made the Mega Drive games work.

For the 3D games, Sonic Team just need to pick a direction and stick with it. Personally, I would've been fine with a straight continuation of the Unleashed/Generations formula, maybe even bring back Adventure Fields and the Chao Garden. The Classic segments here are redundant with Mania existing and the Avatar stuff is just unnecessary.

I think Sega shouldn't be afraid to sell the game for a cool $30-$40. I think that's probably caused some of the issues in a lot of the 3D games. There's still plenty of love for 3D platformers these days, but the problem with a lot of 3D Sonic games is it's felt like they tried padding them out to "justify" a $50-60 release, and it's never really worked to the game's benefit. Focus on what works, refine it till you have it down to a science, and it's easier to find a price that reflects that and people are happy with and is still profitable.

Sega's been doing a pretty good job with lower-priced releases every bit as great and fun as any $60 game (like Yakuza Kiwami or Puyo Puyo Tetris), and I think that's a comfortable place for Sonic to be. They shouldn't stress so much that it leads to overcompensation.

Also I think some fresh blood with the same kind of drive as Whitehead's team would go a long way too. Mania is having so much love put into it and the 3D games would benefit a lot from that level of care.

@NCZ I agree with you regarding the fact that the 3D games deserve as much love put into it as Mania does; when I said that both the 2D and 3D games should co-exist together, though, I meant to say that I'd be fine if the Mania team handled the former and Sonic Team handled the latter. However, based on a certain statement by Iizuka, Mania's reception will affect the series, and I hope that what I'm saying makes sense; I don't know what he means by that statement.

On the other hand, I also agree on a 3D game with a more refined version of the Boost formula, as well as hub worlds and the Chao Garden. If Tails and Knuckles become playable again, would you maybe like the latter's gameplay to have similar elements to the Werehog's gameplay? I'm not saying that Knuckles should have stretchy arms (which would be REALLY weird), but I hope you can at least get a good idea.

@Luigikun

Liam O'Brien

@NCZ oh, very nice. :)

Confirmed from Twitter?

@Luigikun

Not yet, but I'd bet money it's him. Guess he's coming out of his dubbing hiatus (at least for now).

@NCZ Yup
pretty sure is him too
it's the same voice he used for laslow in fire emblem fates

also
he was on hiatus?
i'm pretty sure he was on for honor (haven't checked tho)

@Truco

He wasn't on hiatus from VO in general.

IIRC he wasn't in many non-union/dubbed games for a while because things like familial obligations were tightening his schedule. So there was a point in time where he had to be picky and start prioritizing the higher-paying gigs over the smaller dubbed ones. That's why for example he was in Titanfall 2 and For Honour, but was recast in FE Heroes and SMTIV Apocalypse.

His last dubbed games until now were all recorded before the beginning of 2016 with FE Fates, Bravely Second, and Street Fighter V*. Sonic Forces would be almost two years since then.

If it really is him in this then it's probably a sign he can afford to start doing the odd dub here and there again again.

*Story mode was patched in after launch, but it was recorded along with the main game.

@NCZ Totally freaked when I heard Liam O'Brien ahaha amazing. And yeah I definitely hope I get to hear more of him in some dubs now.

@NCZ

Definitely is him. Stoked to hear him even though the villain looks silly and his theme is something I would've thought was cool 15 years ago.

@SNaG

That's basically my thoughts. Pleasant surprise hearing him, just... Well needless to say, he really is Mephiles 2.0.

@NCZ

We don't talk about that one. Except to compare Sonic Boom to it.

Jokes aside I'm really hoping this game falls on the Generations side of quality and not the 06 side. It seems that it's embracing some of the silly story elements of the other 3D games without taking them as seriously, but you honestly never know with Sonic. At least the VO will be solid, hopefully Jack Fletcher returns to direct.

@SNaG

What one? :B

Generations quality would be the dream... But yeah, I find that I'm holding my breath on this one a lot more as time goes by. On the bright side, Mania looks brilliant and there's Super Mario Odyssey for 3D platform loving this fall as well.

@SNaG I love it, they've just totally and sincerely embraced the edgy fun and made his theme exactly as catchy and silly as it should be (also if you listen to Dangerkids' other songs, you'll see that it's no coincidence they got them to make the theme hahaha), so I'm looking forward to it.

Getting Liam O'Brien to voice him is just absolutely fantastic though.

@Soul-dragon Alexis Tipton? Who's she?

@E-Star99 shes a va whos been filling in for laura bailey for her roles because of her schedule these roles include platinum the trinity, kid trunks and lucina

@Abdullab Alexis Tipton, probably and hopefully the next Erica Schroeder of Blaze.

@E-Star99 Yeah. For some reason I actually think she might just be a better fit for the role (if she does end up filling in for Laura Bailey)

@Soul-dragon Can't wait to hear Blaze's voice.

@Soul-dragon I by no means am not here to offend you, but for some reason, I don't think Blaze will appear in the game (don't get me wrong, though, Blaze is my female character in the series). It's totally okay if you disagree with me on this, because everyone's entitled to what they think.

@Marusero Well, I wasn't just talking about this game. I was talking about mostly future Sonic games in general. I think it's safe to assume that Laura Bailey isn't going to be doing a dub anything soon, so I'm just curious to see what Sega will do if it pops up.

@HyperVoiceActing

Yeah, I kinda feel more mixed about the game the more we see of it. Especially since Mania looks so, so good at every showing, but there just doesn't seem to be the same level of confidence and precision here, I still feel more cautious on it. Core gameplay still looks like it should hopefully be good but I'm worried it's succumbing to the same problem as other Sonic games where they bloat the hell out of it and it bogs down the whole thing, instead of lasering in on their strengths.

Also seeing the villains altogether kind of illustrated to me why I think Chaos and Metal Sonic are effective characters in the series and the Deadly Six aren't.

@NCZ Yeah that's my same opinion (although I haven't been keeping up with Mania either)

Also I joke about Zavok, but why is Chaos here too? The story so far just feels like a fanfiction of the Archie universe

@HyperVoiceActing

Chaos went back into the Master Emerald at the end of SA1, so I guueeesss he got broken out again? Or something? I have no idea why Shadow is evil again though.

@NCZ Fanservice.

@Metabad

If it's fanservice they want they should bring back Fang the Sniper.

@NCZ - I honestly wouldn't object to seeing Nack come back, actually.

If Sega's gonna whore out nostalgia, at least use the parts of it we haven't seen in a while lol

@HyperVoiceActing Maybe he wants his revenge on Sonic, after he has been defeated by Sonic in Sonic Lost World.

@ACampos1252 - I wasn't asking for an in-story explanation for why Zavok was here. I was moreso questioning why Sega are still using him when clearly no one liked the Zeti

@Scrappy-Fan92 Sega's official statement was basically, "It's a mystery!"

@Scrappy-Fan92

If I had to guess, the plot of the game is Eggman took over the world with the help of Not Mephiles and the villains from previous games (including Shadow for whatever reason) and the "forces" title comes from their army going against the Sonic characters + the avatars' army.

@NCZ Pardon me for interrupting, but the Unknown Antagonist / "Not Mephiles" is actually known as Infinite.

@SpongeBat1 Chris Chan's dream is finally a reality.

@SpongeBat1 Go out and zap to the extreme.

@Nightmare Crusher better than another original character

@Nightmare Crusher I'm getting Sonic Dreams Collection vibes.

@Nightmare Crusher

....So, who's looking forward to Super Mario Odyssey?

@Nightmare Crusher
#SonicFarces

@Nightmare Crusher We still have 'Sonic Mania' on the way, too, though.

@NCZ We can't look forward to both?

@Scrappy-Fan92

Oh, we can. Just my kinda lighthearted way of saying that the recent stuff we've seen of the game is making me hold my breath a bit more cautiously than I was a few months ago.

@Black Shadow Zero

For me I just hope there's plenty of content. Colours and Generations showed they got the core gameplay down to a science. My main complaint (mainly about the latter game) was that it was just too short. Not like a Sonic game needs to be a 30-50 hour epic or anything, but since they've had this one in the works for such a long time I hope it's got plenty of beef to it.

@wdf1 Since they focus on quality this time, it might be a game changer.

@SteelEthlan We will see.

@vgiannell5 Basically, it might have been like the continuation of sonic generations, but that's a speculation.

@SteelEthlan Well, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

@vgiannell5 Yeah. Rather than Classic just being more of a game mechanic, I think this time his presence will be more story relegated.