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-   -   Are Vancouver dubs going to go extinct? (https://www.behindthevoiceactors.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14237)

IMB 10-27-2020 12:59 PM

Re: Are Vancouver dubs going to go extinct?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IMB (Post 172352)
I've seen a lot of random people hope they'll get the Vancouver actors back for the reprisals. I see no reason to believe that'll happen with a nonunion Bang Zoom dub. I'd be surprised if they even got Kaye back, though part of me thinks they would just to say, "Hey, we know InuYasha had a completely different cast, here's one of them lol."

Ben Diskin says Yashahime's dub is unionized, so Kaye's teases won't go to waste. As for everyone else ...

Maybe Viz and Bang Zoom will surprise us with the second SAG and ACTRA anime series dub? I wouldn't bet on that, but it's not impossible now. I would've preferred the entire thing be recorded in Vancouver (this thread wouldn't exist if there was an abundance of modern Vancouver anime dubs) but since that's not happening, at least having the returning characters would be nice.

(For those curious, the only cross-border unionized anime dub I know of is Supernatural: The Animation. That was mainly recorded in Montreal but they got Jared Padalecki to reprise and had Jensen Ackles return for two episodes.)

millicent 10-31-2020 09:04 AM

Millicent Rambles...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IMB (Post 172364)
Ben Diskin says Yashahime's dub is unionized, so Kaye's teases won't go to waste. As for everyone else ...

Not super familiar with Inuyasha and know basically nothing about Yashahime, but for anyone familiar with them, would you say that it's likely the latter will be successful enough and/or the type of show to get video games made for it? Especially on the level as Inuyasha did?

Just total speculation on my part, but I've kinda nursed the theory for a while now that FUNimation mainly moved Dragon Ball inhouse after realizing that video games/ancillary properties (I had a Vegeta glove with uniquely recorded Drummond dialogue "Final flash!", bet whomever had to pay for that [FUNi? not sure how that works] didn't pay Drummond something as low as 65 an hour) would not only not be able to get the Vancouver voice actors for similar rates to the animation dubbing payrate--but that the rates (whether paid by FUNi, or by some licensee) would be much higher comparatively*. Eager for cast continuity (note how silly the Dragon Ball Final Bout casting is due to needing to voicematch at the expense of reason--coming up with stuff like Milt 'friggin' Jamin as Vegeta due to needing to match Drummond's sinister qualities) in addition to the ability to set the rates themselves for all properties (who knows what they pay for the video games, but I doubt it's the SAG game rate), they set things up themselves.

Based off of losing such a massive property (that they would ultimately get back, I suspect after FUNi realized that YTV needed can-con for such a lengthy, primetime-airing property [hence the YTV dub being Ocean 1-53,FUNi Frieza Saga through mid-Cell Games, then Ocean to the end--"who cares about changing the cast mid story arc? we need can-con!"], they found an option in setting up Bluewater in Alberta--now able to provide their clients with an alternate option--that will allow them to pay the voice talent the same rate-ish across all media and presumably the reason why multimedia properties that were big enough of releases for their companies to have otherwise just been dubbed in Vancouver (DICE, Pretty Cure, Deltora Quest, the card battle stuff, Law of Ueki, even Flame of Recca and Hoop Days were titles that Viz and Bandai were really pushing at the time that had video games they might have been concerned enough about to hold off on just having them dubbed in BC**) went to Bluewater instead.

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure the even lower dubbing payrate than Vancouver certainly helps Bluewater as an option for lower-tier titles for companies, but I think the whole "our little hole away from ACTRA" thing served them as a way to gain some of the opportunities enjoyed by non-signatories. FUNi doesn't have to wait to hear back from SAG to go about recording DBZ, but Ocean ultimately moved production of all those Vancouver dubs (ZOIDS CC, DBGT, DB, Zeta, and G-Gundam) due to needing to wait to hear back on a contract interpretation issue from ACTRA (IIRC--Westwood was not happy about it and complained to the UBCP about it). Dragalia Lost might have demonstrated the fact that Vancouver's just not the kind of town where you can go non-union--even if it wasn't about pay (wasn't that game proven to actually have paid the actors slightly more than ACTRA game scale--and presumably as a means to just get the tracks done and avoid the bureaucracy?)--at least not to the same degree as say LA, or certainly not Texas.

This is all to say that I kind of wonder if that has killed the Vancouver scene more than anything. Make no mistake, I'm not commenting on the union politics of it. Rather pro-union myself and like that ACTRA/the UBCP seem to work so actively to discourage producers (especially big name ones) from cutting them out. But I think part of the appeal of dubs for companies/acquired properties in general is that you're getting a product that you can ultimately sell (in a sense--you would be a licensee) for a fraction of the cost to actually produce something from the ground up--and that notion almost permeates through as an entitlement throughout the production process. This isn't original animation, so why should I pay the same as prelay (even if dubbing is arguably more difficult)? One could theoretically spend a lot on an acquired property; scale is a minimum, but you won't find a union or an actor averse to a client willing to pay more to get people they really want (more established VAs outside of the dubbing pool), but historically everyone just wants to pay the relatively low dubbing scale rate, and I kind of wonder if everyone also wonders why they should bother with the scale video game rate with ACTRA--when they can just go non-union in the States for all properties and probably get away with it.

Granted, if a property really, really hits, the non-union thing is bad optics even in the States, as Saban learned when SAG grew tired of their baloney on Power Rangers. But still, I kinda wonder if Viz kinda sorta regretted going union with Naruto and kinda sorta wound up no worse for wear for going non-union on Bleach (if not considerably richer for it). Their having so many more options in LA might have been the nail in the coffin for Viz and Ocean. They go way back. But what were their last titles together? Death Note in 2007 (no games right?***) and Hunter x Hunter in '08 (Bluewater--again probably because of the possibility of video games should it have been a hit) Maybe they came to almost regret recording Inuyasha in Vancouver versus LA. Believe Carol-Anne Day said that that Inuyasha RPG she was in was at the time the biggest video game yet in terms of total dub dialogue, presumably the reason that game frantically ensures every single character possible (basically all non-reprisals) is an Albertan performer.

*Not so much that they are really that high--just that the animation dubbing payrate has historically been a relatively low amount--whether it be SAG in the states, Equity in the Isles, or ACTRA in Canada.

**One could also see the value of just stunt casting Hoop Days with Vancouver hot guy voice actor all stars (ala what FUNi would do years later with FREE)--something that an Alberta dub could never have done at the time

***Though I do wonder if the live action dubs entailed a higher payrate than animation dubbing

IMB 10-31-2020 04:50 PM

Re: Are Vancouver dubs going to go extinct?
 
Bandai Namco pumps out lots of video games based on nostalgic IPs, so there probably is a decent chance Yashahime gets some. However, I think you're overselling the importance of licensed products. Viz wouldn't be paying for any game's dub. Bandai Namco, Koei Tecmo, ASW, Outright Games, etc. would be. If they were feeling too cheap for an ACTRA production, they could just replace them all with soundalikes or just release the game sub-only. They've been doing the former with Sword Art Online games for years without issue. The only anime dubs I can see being cast with cross-media initiatives in mind are from the companies that do it all internally. That's really just Bandai Namco (back when Bandai Entertainment existed) and Level-5.

Viz's final project with Ocean was InuYasha: The Final Act. Their last non-continuation would've been NANA. Yashahime suggests that the relationship has ended conclusively. It's been such a long time that I'm sure Viz doesn't employ many from those days anymore. Their push towards nonunion productions probably came from the same place as other companies like Mattel. There were no real repercussions, plus it netted them cost savings. Nonunion voice actors were no longer a random grabbag, but in many cases are now bigger "names" than their union counterparts. I've seen a few people confused over comments about some recasts being the result of a lower budget. They recognized the new voice actors. How could they be cheaper than the old ones? If you're a penny-pinching producer. that's music to your ears.

I'm sure there's plenty of things I'm unaware of or am flat-out wrong about, but I have very mixed feelings about ACTRA. It's every union's right to punish members who take nonunion work because otherwise, the union holds little value. Dragalia Lost should've been a wakeup call. That wasn't a handful of little known actors going rogue. Nor was the client a tiny company. That was a substantial amount of the most prominent actors in the talent pool working for one of the largest publishers. That suggests neither was pleased with the current situation. It's great to say you guarantee your actors XYZ, but that means nothing if you've scared the producers off from hiring them. A union shouldn't be making its members unattractive to employers.

SNaG 10-31-2020 05:55 PM

Re: Are Vancouver dubs going to go extinct?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IMB (Post 172434)
Nonunion voice actors were no longer a random grabbag, but in many cases are now bigger "names" than their union counterparts. I've seen a few people confused over comments about some recasts being the result of a lower budget. They recognized the new voice actors. How could they be cheaper than the old ones? If you're a penny-pinching producer. that's music to your ears.

What? No!

There's a definite real race to the bottom when it comes to dubbing, and while I don't want to make the claim that non-union dubbing means low quality, there comes a point where the cost cutting just leads to situations like this. I'm gonna sound like a big old grumpy boomer but I feel people are just content to have something dubbed, regardless of the potential quality. Thankfully I see more people annoyed at the fact the dub isn't Ocean, so at least there's some hope there.

Tangent but part of me wonders (and morbidly hopes) if the race to the bottom will lead to some more dubs in the Sunshine state...

NitroEX 11-01-2020 08:37 AM

Re: Millicent Rambles...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by millicent (Post 172427)
Just total speculation on my part, but I've kinda nursed the theory for a while now that FUNimation mainly moved Dragon Ball inhouse after realizing that video games/ancillary properties (I had a Vegeta glove with uniquely recorded Drummond dialogue "Final flash!", bet whomever had to pay for that [FUNi? not sure how that works] didn't pay Drummond something as low as 65 an hour) would not only not be able to get the Vancouver voice actors for similar rates to the animation dubbing payrate--but that the rates (whether paid by FUNi, or by some licensee) would be much higher comparatively*. Eager for cast continuity (note how silly the Dragon Ball Final Bout casting is due to needing to voicematch at the expense of reason--coming up with stuff like Milt 'friggin' Jamin as Vegeta due to needing to match Drummond's sinister qualities) in addition to the ability to set the rates themselves for all properties (who knows what they pay for the video games, but I doubt it's the SAG game rate), they set things up themselves.

I feel the need to clear some things up.

The glove you're speaking of didn't contain a voice clip of Drummond saying "final flash". That was actually a voice clip from Horikawa lazily mixed in with a Drummond quote.

Regarding the cast continuity thing... I don't think for a second that was ever a motivator for Funimation to go in-house. As with most things related to Funi, it seems to have been mostly motivated by money (with the Vancouver travel excuse often cited by the cast as, presumably, a more dignified excuse). Chris Sabat was even interviewed by the Dallas Observer in 2000 where he spoke about it. In the interview, it states; "He insists he was instrumental in convincing Barry Watson and FUNimation that all the vocal chops they required could be found in the surrounding area."

That alone leads me to believe a cast switch was not considered originally but that the producers at Funi were sold into the idea once they realized how much cheaper of an operation it could be. Remember that these were businessmen who knew zero about anime dubbing, which is why they needed to outsource to BLT and Ocean to guide them in that department.

Quote:

Originally Posted by millicent (Post 172427)
Based off of losing such a massive property (that they would ultimately get back, I suspect after FUNi realized that YTV needed can-con for such a lengthy, primetime-airing property [hence the YTV dub being Ocean 1-53,FUNi Frieza Saga through mid-Cell Games, then Ocean to the end--"who cares about changing the cast mid story arc? we need can-con!"], they found an option in setting up Bluewater in Alberta--now able to provide their clients with an alternate option--that will allow them to pay the voice talent the same rate-ish across all media and presumably the reason why multimedia properties that were big enough of releases for their companies to have otherwise just been dubbed in Vancouver (DICE, Pretty Cure, Deltora Quest, the card battle stuff, Law of Ueki, even Flame of Recca and Hoop Days were titles that Viz and Bandai were really pushing at the time that had video games they might have been concerned enough about to hold off on just having them dubbed in BC**) went to Bluewater instead.

There's another misconception here worth clearing up:

The later Ocean DBZ broadcast dub featured on YTV was not a "YTV dub" and doesn't seem to have been made strictly for can-con reasons either, it was first produced and sold to Netherlands and UK television at a much earlier point in the Trunks saga (edited episode 108) compared to YTV which only switched over during the Cell Games (I believe ep 168).

Interviews from that time with Funimation cast members also suggest they had no idea an alternative dub was even being made. Presumably, the higher-ups at Funi did know because they were still sending their footage to Canada (until Westwood/Ocean caught up and went past their episode number), but they were evidently powerless to stop it - Possibly due to the earlier agreements made by Funi and Ocean for the defunct Saban dub, essentially giving Ocean a loophole and legal green light to continue. Keep in mind they were technically also the "Funi cast", just inactive. Meanwhile, Ocean was still handling their post-production for Canadian TV, so it was a very weird process. but the situation in Europe meant they had a different distributor that they could use as a vendor, and that relationship grew to the point that DB and GT's Blue Water footage was no longer being sourced from Funi in Texas, but instead from AB Groupe in France.

The reasons for the YTV switchover are different and still technically unknown but it's always been presumed that the Funi in-house episodes were not being delivered at a satisfactory pace (and there's some small evidence for this). We could speculate as to why since both Ocean and Funi were collaborating for Canada's broadcasts even after the voice switch, but for whatever reason, it proved better for them to get the Canadian dub that Europe was already using.

Anyway, the union discussion is all very intriguing and I suspect you guys are on to something.

SNaG 11-03-2020 11:27 AM

Re: Are Vancouver dubs going to go extinct?
 
To my great surprise, they not only brought back the Vancouver actors, but they also bagged David Kaye.

Despite this being a positive, I can't deny feeling mixed about the whole affair. Why even give it to BZ to begin with instead of giving the whole hog to Ocean? It honestly feels like a half-baked PR stunt; drive up outrage for not initially giving it to Ocean, drum up suspense, and then make the announcement that the actors are reprising hit harder. Maybe I'm just being a paranoid old man, but yeah. Big shame that new characters aren't given to relative newcomers (relative to people like Richard Ian Cox of course) in the Vancouver pool. On the one hand, it's cool in theory to have both LA and Vancouver dubbing actors in projects. On the other hand, when the LA cast is Erica Mendez in the lead for the 500th time, the novelty gives way to Bang Zoom casting as usual.

The reprisals are good, as is David Kaye's return to dubbing one of his most iconic characters, but Viz handled this weirdly and I don't think they/BZ deserve too much praise for meeting what's essentially the bare minimum.

PsychicVoiceSpy 11-03-2020 12:12 PM

Re: Are Vancouver dubs going to go extinct?
 
My jaw nearly dropped when I saw this. I'm not even a fan of Inuyasha, and I agree that is a bare minimum effort, but considering even that much has apparently been too much to ask from these companies for nearly the past decade, it was still a welcome surprise.

Neo Shadow King 11-03-2020 12:38 PM

Re: Are Vancouver dubs going to go extinct?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SNaG (Post 172474)
To my great surprise, they not only brought back the Vancouver actors, but they also bagged David Kaye.

Despite this being a positive, I can't deny feeling mixed about the whole affair. Why even give it to BZ to begin with instead of giving the whole hog to Ocean? It honestly feels like a half-baked PR stunt; drive up outrage for not initially giving it to Ocean, drum up suspense, and then make the announcement that the actors are reprising hit harder. Maybe I'm just being a paranoid old man, but yeah. Big shame that new characters aren't given to relative newcomers (relative to people like Richard Ian Cox of course) in the Vancouver pool. On the one hand, it's cool in theory to have both LA and Vancouver dubbing actors in projects. On the other hand, when the LA cast is Erica Mendez in the lead for the 500th time, the novelty gives way to Bang Zoom casting as usual.

The reprisals are good, as is David Kaye's return to dubbing one of his most iconic characters, but Viz handled this weirdly and I don't think they/BZ deserve too much praise for meeting what's essentially the bare minimum.

Maybe I'm butting into somewhere I don't belong but I think the reason why this was done is actually quite simple. It's not actually some desperate PR stunt. Oh no. The reason is obvious.

Bang Zoom!, as far as LA options go, is relatively cheap. Ocean by contrast, is most definitely not by comparison by the standards of Anime Dubs. So this is basically Viz and BZ doing their best to be cheap while at the same time also not causing any major outrage by the fanbase. And lets face it, if there's anything most American Distributors love more than anything when it comes to Dubs (Whether we're talking about videogames or Anime, although the latter is definitely more noticeable) is being cheap while still being competent enough... and that's when we're not talking about stuff that gets sent to Miami, by which point even competency isn't expected and it just gets put out for the sake of having a Dub at all... by which point you just wonder why even bother considering you're just wasting money by that point.

Perhaps I am being too simple-minded for not thinking that there's something bigger at play. But hey, in the end both our thoughts aim towards the same thing: Viz really loves getting money, but sure doesn't like spending it. Plus if I kept talking any longer this would instead transform into a rant about my many disagreements with the way Distributors over at North America just kinda treat Dubs as this third rate job, but hey, that would be out of topic, and really what right do I have to criticize them considering most of my gripes with them come from the perspective of someone who lives in a place in which original animation isn't really a thing and Dubs are basically the only way Voice Actors make money?

IMB 11-03-2020 12:49 PM

Re: Are Vancouver dubs going to go extinct?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SNaG (Post 172474)
Despite this being a positive, I can't deny feeling mixed about the whole affair. Why even give it to BZ to begin with instead of giving the whole hog to Ocean? It honestly feels like a half-baked PR stunt; drive up outrage for not initially giving it to Ocean, drum up suspense, and then make the announcement that the actors are reprising hit harder. Maybe I'm just being a paranoid old man, but yeah.

I wouldn't assume malice when it's just as (if not more) likely that Viz wanted multiple bursts of media coverage. Sure, announcing everyone at once would've prevented me from getting some egg on my face, but that's not their problem. :o

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNaG (Post 172474)
Big shame that new characters aren't given to relative newcomers (relative to people like Richard Ian Cox of course) in the Vancouver pool. On the one hand, it's cool in theory to have both LA and Vancouver dubbing actors in projects. On the other hand, when the LA cast is Erica Mendez in the lead for the 500th time, the novelty gives way to Bang Zoom casting as usual.

The reprisals are good, as is David Kaye's return to dubbing one of his most iconic characters, but Viz handled this weirdly and I don't think they/BZ deserve too much praise for meeting what's essentially the bare minimum.

It would've been nice to see some lesser-known talent get the spotlight, but it is what it is. At least we dodged having to hear an Inuyasha soundalike. SAG's foreign dubbing rate is what, $70/hr? IIRC even Blue Water's Alberta actors (who are not under ACTRA) get paid more, exchange rate included. That's probably the answer as to why Bang Zoom's the lead.

I've been wrong about most of Yashahime, so I'm probably wrong about this too. I don't know what to think about Kohaku's recast. On one hand, it's not new territory for that character. The cons of using child actors for long-running shows reared its head with that one. However, his most recent voice actor is still working and is no longer a child, so he would've fit an adult version of the character (though, I don't know if it would've matched the seiyuu). It could (and likely does) mean nothing, but it may indicate that Kelly, Kira, Kirby and Richard are the extent of the returning Vancouver cast. If this is a "bare minimum to avoid mass complaints" type of production, that + the 2 expats is all they'd need. I would be disappointed to not hear Don Brown as Jaken, Brenna O'Brien as Rin, Scott McNeil as Koga, Paul Dobson as Naraku (should the latter two appear), but today's announcement would probably satiate most social media users.

There's still lots left unknown. Did Viz hire a studio in Vancouver to record this, or are they doing it at home? I only mention that because it might impact who's allowed to come back. The four announced today have all been (relatively) prolific in the Vancouver scene for years, so it wouldn't be a surprise to find out they have at home setups. Some of the more obscure cast members, though? Then again, COVID has pioneered quick home booths, so... I'd be impressed if they manage to get Willow Johnson back as Kikyo. I think that would be likelier (but still far from a guarantee) if they had a local studio involved. She's presumed to be retired, but wouldn't be the first actor to come back for a reprisal. Heck, this year alone we've had at least two Vancouver VAs return from nowhere.

CatsTuxedo 11-03-2020 01:04 PM

Re: Are Vancouver dubs going to go extinct?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SNaG (Post 172474)
To my great surprise, they not only brought back the Vancouver actors, but they also bagged David Kaye.

Despite this being a positive, I can't deny feeling mixed about the whole affair. Why even give it to BZ to begin with instead of giving the whole hog to Ocean? It honestly feels like a half-baked PR stunt; drive up outrage for not initially giving it to Ocean, drum up suspense, and then make the announcement that the actors are reprising hit harder. Maybe I'm just being a paranoid old man, but yeah. Big shame that new characters aren't given to relative newcomers (relative to people like Richard Ian Cox of course) in the Vancouver pool. On the one hand, it's cool in theory to have both LA and Vancouver dubbing actors in projects. On the other hand, when the LA cast is Erica Mendez in the lead for the 500th time, the novelty gives way to Bang Zoom casting as usual.

The reprisals are good, as is David Kaye's return to dubbing one of his most iconic characters, but Viz handled this weirdly and I don't think they/BZ deserve too much praise for meeting what's essentially the bare minimum.

Okay good, it's not just me. VIZ so obviously doesn't want anything to do with the Vancouver pool in this day and age, but they still had that bottom line to keep, of course.


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