The Dark Knight

The Dark Knight
US Theatrical: Jul 18, 2008
US Home Media: Dec 09, 2008

Popularity: 1,177th All Time, 1,379th This Week

Franchise: Batman
Characters on BTVA: 1
Batman, Commissioner Gordon and Harvey Dent team up against the Gotham mobs and the new villain in town, The Joker, bent on turning Gotham upside down.
The Dark Knight The Dark Knight
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spencermalley935
said at 12:16 AM on Fri May 12 2017
 1 Shout Out!
Really annoys me when people say it's "pretentious" for trying to be about something.

Anyway, Still awesome, In my opinion it has yet to bested in terms of Superhero movie (Yes I prefer it a little bit to Mask of the Phantasm)
CatsTuxedo (Moderator)
said at 11:20 AM on Fri May 12 2017
@spencermalley935 Considering the dramatic speeches more or less usurp the movie's personality and mask the fact that the characters and story really aren't that complex at all, the sentiment is perfectly understandable.
spencermalley935
said at 12:04 PM on Fri May 12 2017
@CatsTuxedo I disagree. I don't see how it has anymore "dramatic speeches" than any other action film in the genre.
CatsTuxedo (Moderator)
said at 10:47 AM on Sat May 13 2017
@spencermalley935 The thing about speeches in other action movies (or movies in general) is that more often than not, the characters say them because they feel something about the specific scenario that resonates with them. The speeches in this movie aren't derived from any particular character trait or personal experience, but only exist to make the story seem more important and sophisticated than it actually is, which is the textbook definition of pretentiousness.

Tell me that "some men want to watch the world burn" spiel isn't just a gussying-up of the fact that the Joker has no motive other than to be the bad guy.
spencermalley935
said at 1:01 PM on Sat May 13 2017
@CatsTuxedo "the characters say them because they feel something about the specific scenario that resonates with them".

And that's exactly what Alfred's story to Bruce is. He's not saying this out of the blue, He's talking about an experience he had as a soldier in Burma and relating it to the current situation with the Joker. Of all the examples you could have selected for The Dark Knight being "pretentious", You picked the worst possible example.

The textbook definition of "pretentious" is to affect greater importance than is actually possessed. A good clever movie, with strong ideas is not pretentious.
CatsTuxedo (Moderator)
said at 4:24 PM on Sat May 13 2017
@spencermalley935 Even so, the whole "He doesn't have a reason to be evil, he just is" thing is exactly what the bit amounts to. He could've summed up his point in 20 words or less, but he didn't because he insisted on using a vaguely related anecdote to drone on and dress up a really simple point with superficial gravitas. That's neither strong nor clever, just self-indulgent and textbook-pretentious.
spencermalley935
said at 7:55 PM on Sat May 13 2017
@CatsTuxedo I've long held an opinion that people who use the word "pretentious" in regards to TDK trilogy have no clue what that word actually means, They're just using it as a synonym for "fancy pants" or "high brow"

You're not exactly doing much to change my opinion here.

Again, Alfred's story is simply how he chooses to relate how the Joker may be something beyond what Bruce expects from a common criminal, someone who doesn't desire monetary gain, a new player in the game and something like that needs to be treated with weight. There's nothing pretentious or self-indulgent about it.
CatsTuxedo (Moderator)
said at 10:56 PM on Sat May 13 2017
@spencermalley935 He's still basically saying "Common mooks want easy money, this guy's just a creepy, weird bad man" and making it sound more important than what amounts to your average Saturday morning cartoon villain. When it comes down to it, the characters and dialogue are all style and little substance, and the movie is under the impression that its flowery speeches alone push it beyond the average superhero movie.
spencermalley935
said at 1:24 PM on Fri May 19 2017
@CatsTuxedo I feel you're reading into this a bit too much

Alfred's just telling a story to set up the Joker as a dangerous threat, That's all there is to it and it makes no difference to me whether he chose to tell a story or use a 20 word or less anecdote, I find nothing pretentious about it at all.

"the impression that its flowery speeches alone push it beyond the average superhero movie"

Clearly it's not an impression given how well-received the movie is
CatsTuxedo (Moderator)
said at 2:23 PM on Fri May 19 2017
@spencermalley935 You'd be surprised by how many people can be swept away by something that makes them feel smart without actually doing or saying anything of value (aka pretentiousness). Same goes for professional critics.

Also, it's weird you tell me that I'm reading "too much" into this when, by your logic, a movie like this ought to be lofted up for encouraging that sort of thing. Putting supposed "sacred cows" under scrutiny is exactly what the smart, thinking people this movie is meant to champion ought to be doing, and I can tell you that this movie comes off as more patronizing than smart.
spencermalley935
said at 7:40 PM on Fri May 19 2017
@CatsTuxedo Well by all means, How would you have had Alfred communicate how different the Joker is without being "pretentious"?
CatsTuxedo (Moderator)
said at 10:53 PM on Fri May 19 2017
@spencermalley935 I already dealt out two different versions of the same line stripped to its bare essence, both a measly sentence long, over the course of this conversation, and just for kicks I'll throw in another one: "Don't think about it too hard, Master Bruce. He's evil because it's fun. Knock his lights out."
spencermalley935
said at 1:10 AM on Fri May 26 2017
@CatsTuxedo Sounds underwhelming
CatsTuxedo (Moderator)
said at 8:33 AM on Fri May 26 2017
@spencermalley935 Well, when the point as is underwhelms, one should probably admit that the movie isn't as lofty as it wants people to believe.
spencermalley935
said at 8:29 AM on Mon May 29 2017
@CatsTuxedo Except the point as is isn't underwhelming.
CatsTuxedo (Moderator)
said at 9:05 AM on Tue May 30 2017
@spencermalley935 But you just said it was, after I boiled it down and spelled it out to you.
spencermalley935
said at 12:23 PM on Tue May 30 2017
@CatsTuxedo I meant your way of enunciating it was underwhelming.

Off topic but what do you consider the best live-action superhero movie?
CatsTuxedo (Moderator)
said at 3:45 PM on Tue May 30 2017
@spencermalley935 I don't consider any movie to be the "best" because I don't engage in that sort of thing, regardless of how much I might like or enjoy any one of them in particular.
Music Meister (Moderator)
said at 9:35 PM on Wed Apr 23 2014
 7 Shout Outs!
Interesting trivia, in the interrogation scene Heath Ledger told Bale to actually hit him during the whole thing.
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